My friend was in Dubai to do some business consulting about a month ago, he told me that the place is wonderful and the food is magnificent. But I gotta admit, I have one weakness, I gauge any place mostly by its food, that is what is my number 1 priority for me all the time. What else is there...hmmm, people are people anywhere, they treat you just as you treat them. The people who he came into contact with he said were very intelligent and interested in what he does.
========================================You would think so. But Adam, those Arab regimes are mad. Absolutely insane and mad. There was this popular case of a few westerners. In retaliation to the treatment of Arabs in US after September 11, they locked them up and tortured them.
Of course, i dont mean that the US or any other country is treats foreigners well. There are cases where Arabs are mistreated here in US too. Ashcroft and Bush are equally mad.
All said and done, consider all this before you go. If Iraq gets worse, it is the ordinary tourist/visitor who bear the brunt in form of increased terrorist attacks.
I mean, its not a risk worth taking !
========================================
I've worked in 2 places in the middle east over the past 7 years. Tel Aviv(israel) and Dubai(uae).
The former is quite racist and the people have a very patronising attitude when dealing in business. Arrogance is the order of the day.
The latter is very much a breath of fresh air. The Arabs tend to be down earth and always curious to what new innovation you'll bring to the country. Very hospitable people too. Its a city that has the strength of the singapore economy, yet with a more warm eastern touch.
So i say, go for it matey!!!
"Just trying to be helpful"
Have u actually worked/lived in the mideast?. I have many colleagues working in saudi arabia, kuwait, bahrain and uae.
None of them have voiced complaints to the degree you make it out to be. Although you might get the rare one in a million attack. Its no different then walking down a new york street and getting mugged.
And the uae is very safe,, too safe maybe. The law is the ultimate rule. I have never come across an expat who has been jailed or even harrassed. I guess the rule is, if you follow the law, you'll be ok. simple as that.
No i havent worked in the middle east. I ought to clarify to the OP and everyone else here that the post was NOT a reflection of the Arab people but the prevailing world situation and the Arab REGIMES. You simply do not know what will happen next as a result of what is happening in Iraq. Terrorists look for soft targets these days. Look at the attacks on British targets.
The madness of Bush and Blair are a threat to every innocent western person who goes to the middle east.
See the travel advisories. The Americans themselves ask you to avoid visiting many of these so called friendly places.
Look what happenned yesterday. People (Westerners) were taken hostage and 10 innocent people were killed. Does this reflect on the Arab people?. No it does not. But is the middle east safe for westerners?. You got to be kidding if you say "Yes".
The hostage taking there is no aberration. Bush and Blair have lit a fire there which has just started to spread.
I can tell you (from experience) that Muslims get deeply offended if anything is done regarding their religious sensibilities. After all the abuse incidents, you simply dont know what is going on in the minds of several of the fanatical elements there.
Not a risk worth taking. Again, i stress to point out that i think the Arabs are as friendly as anyone else in this forum. But its a risk.
When a country is strongly Arabic and Muslim, I would say you really ought to consider what it's going to be like if you are not either Arabic or Muslim. Especially if you don't speak Arabic, as that's the official and predominant language.
If you look like an American Christian, and act like one, then that makes you a target even inside a friendly country. These aren't peaceful times between the US and Arab extremists. It has nothing to do really with the specific country and whether they are friendly to the US (as the UAE clearly is).
Would you be safer in the UAE than in Iraq or Iran or even Saudi Arabia? Yes. Would you be safer in the UAE than the USA? Definitely not. This is not a decision to be taken lightly.
Good luck.
========================================
I like Dubai and it's getting better all the time (and no cheaper unfortunately!).
Two-thirds of the population are Indian expats anyway. The Emiratis are very friendly towards westerners, but that is true of nearly everyone in the Middle East. The problem are the ones who decide blowing up innocent civilians is some kind of laudable political statement; the actions of the British and American governments does nothing to disilluison them in this respect.
Even in Saudi a westerner is still more likely to die in a traffic accident than in a terrorist attempt, though you could say that says more about the driving than the state of security in the country. The Emirates and Oman have been pretty well trouble free, and whilst there is definetely a Western exodius from Saudi, there appears to be no such thing from the Emirates (indeed competition is probably hotting up as many of those in Saudi go around applying for jobs).
I would be more worried in your position as to the quality of your job. The Emiratis pride themselves on being more efficient than the Saudis but there isn't really much competition there, and a lot of the IT world is run by Indians not good enough to get jobs in the UK or US, whilst the managers are quite likely to be clueless (and if you ever wonder where pointy-haired managers go when they are finally found out and dismissed in disgrace, the answer is to a tax-free life in the Gulf).
========================================
Arabic is the official language, but I doubt if more than one-third of the population speaks it. After the Iraqui invasion of Kuwait in 1990 the Gulf States got paranoid about losiing control to Palestinians or Egyptians and so started giving visas for unskilled work to Asians of different nationalities.
In Dubai you definitely see many more Indans (inlcuding Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and Sri Lankans) than Emiratis. That's why they are thinking of moving the headquarters of the ICC there from London. Also Dubai is the capital of the Indian Muslim Mafia. Dawood Ibrahim among others all live there
========================================
In ten years time it's hard to say. Abu Dhabi has the oil and the Emir of Dubai has positoned his country as the tourism hub of the region. The fact that planes normally need to touch down somewhere in the Middle East means that Dubai is becoming an internaitional airline hub (the airport is fabulous).
Now the oil may run out, or the water might, but neither is likely to happen in ten years.
As for incompetence - hard to tell. I would hate to work in IT in Saudi, but Dubai may be better. Depends on exactly what you are doing. And it could play in your favour. "In the country of the blind ......."
========================================
I don't know about the "straight dope" form the State Department. My American colleagues view it as CYA when not politically motivated. As they all live in bunkers anyway, it's hard to say how they can actually have any information at all.
Still at least their advice is straightforward if not very practical. The British govenrment's advice for Saudii is a masterpiece of vacuity. UK citizens should leave Saudi unless they have compelling reasons to stay there - those who don't presumably being the legions who came here for a taste of the sun and the sand! The ambassador is supposed to be here on Tuesday, so I'll take time off work to hear some more vacuity (at least I might pick up some tips on buck-passing, which seeing has half of my job is hiring Americans and Brits to come over here is going to be pretty necessary!).
========================================
Mind you, this isn't gonna change ever. No matter what crowd is in the White House. Arabs are hostile to the West by virtue of their religion, ideology and education. Unless all Americans get converted to Islam, of course. Which is unfortunately has become quite a fashion lately (may be that was the ultimate goal of 9/11 perpetrators).
To Mr. Dave Levy:
1) it's really a pity to see a Jew extolling in such a shameless manner largely nonexistent virtues of an Arab regime while throwing mud at his own people's homeland.
2) it is widely known that Gulf countries will refuse to enter a foreigner with an Israeli visa stamp in his passport, so either you
a) never worked in Israel
b) never worked in Emirates
c) you have two passports - Israeli and one of another country. In which case the slander against Israel is even more disgusting.
========================================
While i dont think this forum is really for politics and your indirect accusations of self-hating Jew jargon. I might as well make my point, from my experiences (dont know about you or anyone elses), I found Israelis to be arrogant in their dealings, this is just my personal opinion, period. Secondly, i do have 2 passports. But whats the crime in dual citizenship.?
Another thing, just because I'm a Jew, I'm not going to pretend there is a Jewish unity by not leveling some sort of criticism at Israel. All I was refering to was the business community in Israel. But I guess when you oppress another people this is the attitude that is reaped.
How sad, we've gone from oppressed to oppressor in such short span time in history. And being a good Jew means giving constructive criticism of ourselves, not to show the world "Hey world, we are so united, we all agree unanimously that we should kill Palestinians and bulldoze their homes"
And your 2 cents of 911 is just as bad as the other extreme, in which some Arabs believe it was a Jewish plot.
"Arabs are hostile to the West by virtue of their religion, ideology and education"
Yeah, lets reverse that and say "Americans are hostile to Islam by virtue of their religion, ideology and education". Sounds kind of corny doesnt it?. Such statements only work in the Likud partys favour, as they need to propagate lies about their neighbours in order to keep the Wests hatred of Arabs at an all time high because it works well in favour of Israels foreign policy.
Instead of using billions of American tax dollars to buy weapons, go buy some humanity (if it ever can be bought) and show the rest of the world we do have some good morals left.
========================================
Almost 100% of Arabs are against American foreign policy, but so is most of the world.
That does not translate into being anti-westerner, or even anti-western. I have travelled tnroughout the Middle East, though not in Iraq or Palestine, and have only seen hostility around Buraidayah, though I didn't even consider venturing into Asiut or Fayyoum. Most Arabs seem quite capable of distinguishing between the actions of the rulers and the actions of the rules.
The general ill-manners of the Israelis and the general hospitality of the Arabs is proverbial. A travel writer once said that when you crossed the Allenby Bridge into Israel from Jprdan you moved from the politest people in the World to the rudest. A Saudi friend gave me a more likely explanation. What you experience as innate politeness he said, was the Arab obligation of hospitality. Amongst themselves the Arabs are every bit as ill-mannered as the Israelis.]
========================================
I've actually always wondered about that. Whats up the israelis ass?. I admit, i havnt been to there country, but i bump into many of them in Thailand when I go visit there quite often. They behave like they own the place, and treat the Thais like they are their slaves. Get a grip, and treat people the way you would want to be treated. (i'm directing this only to those in question who come to thailand, not to any other israeli)
========================================
ok ok ok, i get the point,, tel aviv is off my list of travel plans :).
========================================Dave,
I think that if Jews would express a 1/100th of solidarity that Arabs (and Muslims) do Israel wouldn't be on the verge of elimination now.
And thanks for your preaching for humanity.
Two years ago, my mom was returning from the Haifa market where she went to buy some food and she missed the bus; that same bus she missed was blown up by a terrorist and we couldn't find he for hours because traffic was stopped and phone line were jammed due to all people trying to find their relatives. We though she was killed in that bus, you see?.. So for G-d sake, please don't teach me humanity and such.
I am sorry to see your brains so washed as to believe to all that crap you're telling here. Good Lord! "killing Palestinians and bulldozing their homes" - you mean killing terrorists (not all Arabs are terrorists, of course) and yes, Israel has to destroy some buildings when they're used as covers for underground tunnels built so smuggle weapons and explosives from Egypt. Anything wrong with that?
Now Arabs lie and exaggerate the scale of these actions and their lies are transmitted all over the world and people believe them because they aren't given the real picture. You could see it while being in Israel. But you choose to solidarize with the enemies of your people (they *say* it openly - in Arabic; but you and your ilk prefer not to hear that). Shame to you.
It is really disapointing to see intellingent people belonging to technical profession to fall into the same leftist trap that American humanitarian academia had fallen very long ago and to turn their brain off everytime Israel and Middle East is mentioned.
========================================
I agree with you very much. I cant believe what i see on television on how Israel can treat the Palestinans this way. Their occupation has caused endless bloodshed and Palestinan suicide bombing causing untold harm to innocent jews. This is not to mention innocent westerners being put in the front line as a result of israels actions.
As Noam Chomsky (a jew himself) remarked, these so called supporters of Israel must be correctly called as supporters of moral degeneration of Israel.
Israel is a great nation with greater people. See the refusenicks in the Army who refused to fight in Palestine?. Ultimately, they will triumph because they are right. I think if peace does come to the middle east, it will come as a result of courageous jews who speak up rather than because of suffering caused by fanatical suicide bombers.! Israel and its people will redeem their nation from the likes of Sharon and will shine once more as the "light unto the nations"
========================================
Kobi, I'm not doubting your story. The suicide bomber is repulsive indeed. But what makes them become such?. Your the type that will resort to the easy way out. "Oh its their religion, it teaches hate",
"the Palestinians are full of hate",
"the Palestinians dont want peace, they want to destroy Israel",
"A second holocaust will occur if we gives Palestinians land".
Man, the arguments just go on ad nauseum, it doesnt even resort to the root of the problem. Have you ever asked
"why exactly makes them become suicide bombers"?.
Have you thought that maybe, just maybe their certain factors that is driving them to that extent?.
eg home demolitions, settlement of their land, curfews, murders, lack of accountability of soldiers, torture, unemployement, checkpoint humilations (while settlers pass freely) and the story goes on.. This offcourse does not justify suicide bombing, but certainly gives a better explaination then "they just hate us".
Remember, there was no suicide bombings back in 1948, when our forefathers decided to uproot a people from their land (and a people who were innocent of all that past Jewish suffering). There were no suicide bombers when you displaced them a second time in 1967. And made a whole people refugees on their own land.
After decades of innumerable suffering, and the U.S. ignoring their pleas in the U.N., what would you expect?, they were going to throw a party for us?.
During the 1980's, Israel funded hamas when it was just a small Islamic charity, as Mr Shamir wanted to foment opposition amongst the Palestinians to the secular PLO in the territories. Sad, but hey, thats history now right.
For every one Israeli that dies, 15 more Palestinians die as payback. The most they have is suicide belts and the occasional gun, Israel has the apache helicopters and tanks. Israel is really a spoiled nation. And I tell you, I'm not the only one of my thinking, and being Jewish too. The younger generation of Jews around the world are becoming growingly ashamed to have any links with Israel. Many offcourse will not voice it because they get bothered by people of your like who will resort to "self-hating Jew", 'Traitor", "Hitler lover","Arafat lover", even "anti-semite".
If this is how you will continue, then best of luck, as history has always shown that the oppressor always ends up on the wrong side of history. And sadly, due to guilt by association, people like me will have to pay the price for your actions.
========================================
After you read this small historical narration by St Augistine, you'll never see world events in the same light..
----------
A captured pirate was brought before Alexander the Great. "How dare you molest the sea?" asked Alexander. "How dare you molest the whole world?" the pirate replied, and continued: "Because I do it with a little ship only, I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy, are called an emperor."
-----------
The story of the pirate and emperor can serve as a powerful analogy for today. For understanding questions of compliance with laws and norms of conduct, it offers a framework that is particularly significant because it puts the "pirate" and the "emperor" in the same frame. The more common practice has been to take for granted the idea of a "pirate" who has somehow to be disciplined by a lawful authority whose own role and conduct, by definition, are effectively beyond scrutiny or judgment. The tale does this by revealing a key similarity between the pirate and the emperor: their shared recourse to force in pursuit of self-interest, albeit on very different scales. If one keeps this firmly in mind, there will be little difference between the professed motives of pirates and emperors and both can be judged.
And today, we know in this context very well who is the "emperor". This analogy is a perfect representation of the current situation between the pirates and Emporer (Read: Palestinian "terrorists" and Israel)
========================================
Dave
Bravo ! May your tribe grow !
Kobe, how about taking seriously what Dave has just spoken instead of simply attacking him?
AC
Monday, May 31, 2004
AC,
take it from me pal, people like Kobi i've come across many times, very stubborn and hard headed like the berlin wall they've built. To them, Israels name must be defended by hook or by crook.
Never feel fear in voicing opposition to anything thats wrong. Many of my Jewish brothers need serious waking up, as well as their American Baptist friends who are doing all they can for armageddon to be unleashed in the mideast.
DL
Dave Levi
Monday, May 31, 2004
Dave Levi,
Consider the massacres of Jews by Arabs that occured last century in Israel before the founding of the state in 1948. Consider also the Tibetan people who, while an occupied people, have not resorted to inhumane measures against the Chinese.
Get a clue.
ICBW
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Well, it looks like you stole the land from the wrong people. Next time, consider Tibet.
dChan
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Coke is better than Pepsi!
Windows is better than Linux!
Green is the new black!
Japanese are smarter than Americans!
American cars are made better!
emacs is better than vi!
Mandarin is harder to learn than Cantonese!
Marilyn was a better actress than Jayne Mansfield!
Honeydew melons are juicier than casabas!
Greenland better represents the arctic lifestyle than Siberia!
¿Quien es mas macho - Fernando Lamas o Ricardo Montalban?
Tastes great! Less filling!
Ikea's furniture is better made than Target's!
Madonna is more of an 80's icon than Duran Duran!
American Beauty was a better movie than Return of the King!
Philo
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Philo,
Where do you come up with these collections of inanities?
ICBW
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Little Dyson trivia vacuum running in my brain. I just empty it once in a while.
Philo
Philo
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
ICBW,
<<Consider the massacres of Jews by Arabs that occured last century in Israel before the founding of the state in 1948. Consider also the Tibetan people who, while an occupied people, have not resorted to inhumane measures against the Chinese.>>
It is you who do not have a clue. The Tibetans DID fight. They had a guerilla army partly trained by CIA and partly by the Indians. They were wiped out by the Chinese. And secondly, have you not heard of the Irgun/Stern gangs or the assasination of the UN diplomat.?
AC
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Wll, I'm glad this thread deteriorated enough so that you could get some relief.
ICBW
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
AC,
I'm sure that I have no chance of success in teaching you history, nor of convincing you of the error of your ideas. So I'm not even going to try. I'm already sorry that I made that one post about the whole matter.
Salaam!
ICBW
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
"I'm sure that I have no chance of success in teaching you history, nor of convincing you of the error of your ideas. So I'm not even going to try. I'm already sorry that I made that one post about the whole matter."
If I read that properly, and from the many encounters with Israeli exchange students on campus years ago,,,it comes out like this
" Due to your good exposure of history and investigation of current events AC, I'm sure that I have no chance of success in teaching you the zionist version of history which only fools the racist and ignorent, thus you are too smart for me to even be bothered with. Therefore I'm not going to attempt to win an uphill battle. In any case, Israel owns the land, we run the occupation, we walk away scotfree from our killings, all in the name in that beautiful name of defence. And we get lots of free goodies from the U.S.. I'm already regretful that I initiated this headache when I'm quite satisfied with the status quo. And just to top it up, I'll say salaam giving the impression I might be an Arab agreeing with my slave masters point of view"
dChan
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Right!
ICBW
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Good work AC and dchan, even I learn something new from these exchanges.
Peace in the Middle east!!!!
Dave Levi
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Yes, peace in the middle east for sure,,thats what I'll need. And lets hope ariel sharon doesnt send missiles into the uae,,that would be a freaky experience.
Adam K.
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
I was thinking the other day about the israeli-palestinian problem and imagined how it would be if the situation was the opposite. the Palestinians "in power" and occupying israel… don't you think that they would be committing the same atrocities? and the israelies doing suicide bombing and more terrorism?
I don't think that this is an oppressor-victim polarity, this is too nations who hate each other… for so long that maybe they cannot recall no peaceful time in their history … there are no excuses for any of them … if the palestinians were in power they would be doing the same thing to the israelies… why? because they hate them? Why are the israelies oppressing the Palestinians...? beacues they hate them ….Anyway that's my opinion.
Cecilia Loureiro
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
i forgot to say, that this is a very sad situation as in most cases people tend to take sides .... so the dimension of the problem increases ... very sad indeed... i would prefer to see people and in particular goverments being more objective and trying to help both nations not only one of them...
Cecilia Loureiro
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
yes.... i agree... good point
Peace in the Middle east!!!!
Viviana
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
"Can't we all just get along?"
For the children...
Rodney
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
DL,
In short, you seem to be saying that Israeli violence against Palestinians provokes retaliation against Israelis. But Palestinian violence is not, in turn, provocation for Israeli retaliation?
Takes two to keep a cycle of violence going.
Jim Rankin
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
All this talk of war, combat and bloodshed has left me quite frightened. I need to find the nearest embassy so that I may surrender as soon as possible. My professor at the French College of Capitulation told us that only through cowardice, surrender and collabaration with the enemy can we truly find our greatness.
Frenchie
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Ta gueule!
Stephen Jones
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
If this is how you will continue, then best of luck, as history has always shown that the oppressor always ends up on the wrong side of history. And sadly, due to guilt by association, people like me will have to pay the price for your actions.
DL
Right on brother, that's all I can say. I wish there were more people like you in this world be it a Jew, Moslem or Athiest.
Living in peace
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Jim, I have a simple solution to this problem, and so does the rest of the world. END THE OCCUPATION!.
And everything that comes with it. This issue is not between two equal matching parties, where a balance of powers exists. Unlike India and Pakistan, here you have a situtation where one has an overwhelming use of force, as opposed to a stateless people that have to custom make their simple weaponry.
You probably don't know the degree of the ludicrousness when our Israeli leaders try to behave like the victims, the world is crying "Who are they trying to fool?". This is a case where a nation has lost all sense of proportion. A Palestinian death, holds the same value as the death of a Jew in the eyes of G-D.
DL
Dave Levi
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Ok, I have now surrendered and I eagerly await the opportunity to collaborate with the enemy.
If I'm lucky, many of my countrymen will join me in their cowardice. Once the countries that actually have courage shed their blood to end the war, we can all claim we were part of the resistance and fly our flags and be proud to be French.
Viva Vichy France!
Viva de Gaulle!
Viva whatever saves our skins and keeps us from fighting!
Frenchie
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
Petit con!
Stephen Jones
Tuesday, June 01, 2004
My heart goes out to all the innocent victims of this conflict, and I hope the war crimes perpetrated against the Palestinians comes to an end. There is hope, the world has not forgotten you.
Angela Pearl
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
My heart goes out to all the innocent victims of this conflict, and I hope the war crimes perpetrated against the Israelis comes to an end. There is hope, the world has not forgotten you.
Pearl Angela
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
I've seen many images and email forwards,,,but this one has got to take the cake
http://www.iap.org/jewspal.htm
Very evocative...The parallels are too striking. As if a people had never learnt from the pain of their past persecution. And yet israel attempts to cling onto the status of victimhood while carrying out the same crimes that they detest (and hunt down) of the Nazi persecutors of yesteryear. How a people can continue on with this hypocrisy has got to be beyond the scope of any persons reasoning and understanding...
I can't tell the difference, can you?
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
The headline of the page you refer to is:
"Zionism and Nazism: We Can't Tell The Difference, Can You? "
The answer of course is yes, very easily, and those who can't are either woefully ignorant or woefully hypocritical.
Idiotic comments like that stop people seeing the similarities. And sometimes even Likud ministers see this; the justice minister of Sharon;s government, on seeing a picture of an old Palestinian woman rooting around the rubble of her house in Rafah, made the comment "She reminded me of my grandmother". The reference was clear, and Uri Averny, the Israeli journalist and peace activist, reckoned that the explicit parallel was what caused the Israeli government to pull back from its original plan of demolishing 3000 houses.
Stephen Jones
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
What difference did all this make to the grandma picking up medicine from the rubble?. She still ended up in a red cross tent, if she was lucky at all. The word "Compensation" is not a known term in the Israeli lexicon. But it is when they ask for it, hell, they'll go as far Switzerland.
aussie aussie aussie
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
"Jim, I have a simple solution to this problem, and so does the rest of the world. END THE OCCUPATION!"
Well, of course! It's so simple! Just get all those Jews out of the Middle East! Problem solved.
Of course, then we have to find some place to move all of them to. I'm sure there will be lots of countries lining up to give all those Zionists a place to call their own.
Jim Rankin
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
"Very evocative...The parallels are too striking."
Uh, pictures with no context, no explanation of what they depict, tells us what, exactly?
Nazis wore military uniforms. Israelis wear military uniforms. Therefore Israelis are Nazis.
Look, I'm not trying to defend everything Israel is doing. I'm really not.
But, generally speaking, when people start comparing bad person/group/nation/etc. to Nazis, it indicates that they have abdicated any kind of rationality with respect to that issue.
Jim Rankin
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
Ummmm, I think DL was refering to the occupation of the west bank and gaza, not all of israel. That is what the word occupation is commonly refered to when discussing the israel-palestine issues...
D-DAY
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
I didnt need those images to see the comparison. I have my bbc to see the everyday images of the palestinian dead and wounded. And my history channel to see the ww2 tragedy. Its not difficult for me to put two and two together and see the parralel for myself.
D-DAY
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
Well, from the enlightening info that DL has provided. And the images i see. I think the conclusion that is trying to be drawn here is that the Jews suffered enourmosly during world war 2, losing 6 million of their bretheren. And such a tragedy would teach a people that never to inflict such a suffering on another people. But have we learnt anything today?. And although the Palestinians are not in ww2 concentration camps. Their pain is real enough. And it baffles the commoner that the Jews can stand by and tolerate such infliction of pain. When their grandfathers suffered pain.
Actually, when i think about it,,the palestinians are in a huge concentration camp, and are dying gradually. Its like they are living through their version of a genocide, but at a steady pace. Whatever the means happens to be,,a large number of them are dying. And such suffering is producing desperate people who will blow themselves up and kill and maim innocent israeilis.
I think a U.N. force has to enter the territories and create a buffer between the two peoples. And the apartheid wall is not what i'm talking about. May peace come to this troubled region.
Please correct me DL if i've somehow misinterpreted u.
Jermaine d
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
"Ummmm, I think DL was refering to the occupation of the west bank and gaza, not all of israel."
That's not what the Palestinian "leadership" thinks, at least if you listen to what they actually say in Arabic.
What you suggest has been more or less offered to the Palestinians in the past, and they rejected it. Why do you think they would accept it now?
Jim Rankin
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
"And although the Palestinians are not in ww2 concentration camps. Their pain is real enough."
Yes, of course the pain of the Palestinians is real.
But invoking Nazis has nothing to do with it. Israelis are not Nazis. Maybe you think they are better than Nazis, or worse than Nazis, or about the same. But they're not Nazis, and sophomoric attempts to find pictures that have even a passing resemblance to a picture from WWII adds nothing to the debate and does nothing to bring anyone closer to a real solution to very real problems.
Jim Rankin
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
" And such suffering is producing desperate people who will blow themselves up and kill and maim innocent israeilis."
Again the argument that "the Israelis made me do it". But if you claim that Palestinians are not in any way culpable for their actions, can't the Israelis be similarly excused?
The argument seems to boil down to "The Palestinians are weak, and therefore can be excused any depravity. The Israelis are strong, and therefor can be vilified for everything, including the acts that Palestinians commit against them."
Jim Rankin
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
"And the apartheid wall is not what i'm talking about."
Right now, "the apartheid wall" may be the best solution to a very bad problem IF it is accompanied by a dismantlement of the "settlements". Putting a group of people into a place where they are totally surrounded by people who hate them is nutso (yes, the irony of that statement regarding Israel with respect to it's neighbors is not lost on me, but that's a whole other topic). It's nutso than anyone, Israeli or Palestinian would object to getting rid of them. So of course, both Israelis and Palestinians rejected the idea when it was presented.
The Palestinians have no leadership, no internal structure now whatsoever. Who's running things? Who do you negotiate with that can enforce an agreement on the Palestinian side? Afafat? Hamas? No one, really.
(Little nuances like this seem to be lost on a lot of the people participating in this discussion.)
That means meaningful diplomacy is utterly futile, pointless, impossible, at least at this juncture. Until that changes, the best policy for Israel is probably to separate themselves physically from the Palestinians while allowing them to move, work, and live their lives freely within their own territory without harassment.
Jim Rankin
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
----" What you suggest has been more or less offered to the Palestinians in the past, and they rejected it. Why do you think they would accept it now? "-----
This is the big lie that the Israelis have been peddling since 1999. The Palestinians were under the impression that this was what they were offered at Oslo and they accepted it. When the time came for the Israelis to withdraw they refused, and offered Arafat a few isolated enclaves and no timetable for future withdrawal.
The offer of permanent peace in return for withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza and a negotiations over the Right of Return or monetary compensation in lieu was offered in 2002 by Prince Abdullah on behalf of the Saudi government, and by extension most of the Arab League. The Israelis didn't bother to reply and got their propaganda machine in the American media to work full tilt to discredit the Saudis.
The "apartheid wall" you refer to (and I believe that South Africa under apartheid is a better analogy to the Israeli-Palestinian struggle tnat Nazism, with the proviso that the Afrikaaners in South Africa have a much more valid territorial claim than the Jews in Israel) would be quite acceptable to Palestinians if it covered the Pre-1967 borders and allowed for a corridor to link Gaza with the West Bank. It does nothing of the sort however; it actually leaves the Palestinians with about 7% of pre-1948 Palestine, gives most of the West Bank to the 230,00 illegal Israeli settlers, and leaves many Palestinian villages completely surrounded by concrete.
As for the "nuances" you claim we are not taking into account, the destruction of Palestinian leadership has been deliberate Israeli policy. They bombed Palestinian police stations, and have put Arafat under virtual house arrest. Sharon was repeatedly told that this policy would make a negotiated peace all the more difficult, but of course ignored the advice for the simple reason that his whole political career has been dedicated to ensuring that peace wil never happen.
By the way Jim, I am impressed that you read Arabic, and have taken the interest and time to read the speeches of the Palestinian leaders in Arabic and compare them with what they say in English. Particularly laudable considering all the work you have to do to keep up with technology. Perhaps you could do the rest of us the favour of sharing your particular research with the specific examples and references you are referring to.
Stephen Jones
Wednesday, June 02, 2004
"Ummmm, I think DL was refering to the occupation of the west bank and gaza, not all of israel."
That's not what the Palestinian "leadership" thinks, at least if you listen to what they actually say in Arabic.
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And here is an example:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP23601
Though of course there will be those who will say that the translation is suspect...
ICBW
Thursday, June 03, 2004
Beautiful said Stephen.
icbw, cant believe you even want to quota us from memri,,it brought back memories of an article i once wrote about that infamous editorial company..
here is the article...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html
Dave Levi
Thursday, June 03, 2004
oops, my mistake, i meant an article i once read, not wrote :)
sorry, morning blues over here..
DL
Dave Levi
Thursday, June 03, 2004
Well, here I go again...
Dave Levi,
The article you pointed me to about MEMRI showed that they have an agenda. It also states that, as far as they know, nobody disputes the accuracy of their translations, so I don't know why I wouldn't refer people to a translation that they made.
ICBW
Thursday, June 03, 2004
Hi Stephen.
Could you give me your translation of what memri translates thusly:
"Similarly, if we agree to declare our state over what is now only 22% of Palestine, meaning the West Bank and Gaza – our ultimate goal is [still] the liberation of all historical Palestine from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, even if this means that the conflict will last for another thousand years or for many generations."
in the article linked to by ICBW.
The original source is sited as " 'Al-Arabi' (Egypt), June 24, 2001." Hopefully, the original is available on line (my Arabic Googling skills are not up to the task, unfortunately).
Thanks.
Jim Rankin
Thursday, June 03, 2004
"Sharon was repeatedly told that this policy would make a negotiated peace all the more difficult, but of course ignored the advice for the simple reason that his whole political career has been dedicated to ensuring that peace wil never happen."
No one did more to insure Sharon's election than Arafat. Your statement quite accurately describes either man.
Jim Rankin
Thursday, June 03, 2004
---"Subtitles are given by the translator. "----
In the small print at the bottom of the article. And if you look at the two sub-titles and compare them with the text that goes below them, you can see that the translator is deliberately trying to spin things.
The interview was taken in 2001 when it was clear that negotiations had collapsed. Even so the two main points he was making are perfectly reasonable.
They are firstly that the Oslo agreement was unsatisfactory because the Israelis did not in fact commit themselves to anything. The second is that the Israelis are not sincere in their profession of accepting partition but simply view it as a temporary stage in the inexorable advance to a unitary "Greater Israel", and that the Palestinians are acting the same way.
As for the importance of the fact that the "independent organiziation" is a front for the Israeli government and American Zionist organizations, I would ask you what credence you would take on a tranlsation into Arabic of the American government's speeches chosen by Michael Moore, the Nation of Islam and Saddam Hussein.
Stephen Jones
Thursday, June 03, 2004
Arafat had bet everything on peace. If it didn't happen it would be overthrown by Hamas. The only reason that hasn't happened is that Sharon's has made him into a martyr and as a figurehead of all persecuted Palestinians he regains popular sympathy.
Stephen Jones
Thursday, June 03, 2004
Trying to get a job with them JIm? Excellent use of selective quotations.
I'll give the whole quote here, and put a few capitals of my own.
WE ARE [acting] EXACTLY LIKE THEM. In 1947, in accordance with [the UN] Partition Plan, they decided to declare statehood on 55% of the land of Palestine, which they later increased to 78% during the War of 1948, and then again [increased it] to 100% during the War of 1967. Despite all that, they never attempted to make secret of their long-term goal, which is "Greater Israel" from the Nile to the Euphrates. Similarly, if we agree to declare our state over what is now only 22% of Palestine, meaning the West Bank and Gaza – our ultimate goal is [still] the liberation of all historical Palestine from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, even if this means that the conflict will last for another thousand years or for many generations."
"IN SHORT WE ARE EXACTLY LIKE THEY ARE..
The question that this interview begs is what would be the attitude of the Palestinians if they felt the Israelis were not using the accord as a way of cheating them.
I suppose the pro-Palestinians could set up an Israel research institute which oould translate from Hebrew and English the many speeches from Israeli politicians suggesting the complete expulsion of all Palestininians, or their status as unter-Menschen but what would be the point? Everybody knows that in any society or government there is a plurality of views, and that people express themselves differently according to their mood, the audience, and what they perceive as the attitude of their opponents.
"As for the importance of the fact that the "independent organiziation" is a front for the Israeli government and American Zionist organizations, I would ask you what credence you would take on a tranlsation into Arabic of the American government's speeches chosen by Michael Moore, the Nation of Islam and Saddam Hussein."
So what are you saying here, that the translation is not correct (even though nobody who actually speaks Arabic has made that claim)?
"Arafat had bet everything on peace. If it didn't happen it would be overthrown by Hamas. The only reason that hasn't happened is that Sharon's has made him into a martyr and as a figurehead of all persecuted Palestinians he regains popular sympathy."
How did you come to this conclusion? Wouldn't you think that if that was true he would have at least made a counter proposal to what he was offered at Camp David, rather than rejecting it and starting a war a few months later? Don't forget that Sharon wasn't elected until quite a few months later, well into the war.
"They are firstly that the Oslo agreement was unsatisfactory because the Israelis did not in fact commit themselves to anything."
The Oslo Accords brought Arafat and his cronies (who were well out of the worlds spotlight and support, in part because of his support for Saddam Husein's invasion of Kuwait) over from Tunis, giving him control over land and population and tremendous amounts of money. In return, the PA promised that they had accepted Israel's right to exist and that they would never again return to violence against Israel. Please explain how Israel didn't "commit" to anything; Israel did much more than committing, it gave tangible things in return for promises.
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"Israel did much more than committing, it gave tangible things in return for promises. "
Care to to give specific example? cause as far as I am concrened this statement is as valid as horseshit. Pardon my french.
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News media situation in the US is pathetic!,
Handing over control (not in all aspects but the vast majority) of Gaza and all of the large cities in the West Bank to Arafat.
Giving Arafat weapons and allowing him to build his myriad security forces.
If thats not tangible, then I don't know what is.
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Basically, if we decipher the newspeak. it meant handing over the dirty work of control to Arafat, while continuing the settlements and other aspects of occupation. Something Hanan Ashrawi described as "Instead of attempting to end the occupation, they've 'beautified' it"
"If thats not tangible, then I don't know what is. "
How nice, so Arafat got all the tangible benifets at the expense of the millions of Palestinians?. Assuming Arafat really got anything in the first place.
tan·gi·ble
Capable of being possessed or realized; readily apprehensible by the mind; real; substantial; evident. Webster Dictionary
But Palestinians themselves did continue to recieve their tangible "benifets"...
1. Home demolition
2. Targetted assassinations (as well as the bystanders)
3. Imprisonment without trial
4. Uprooting of farm trees
5. Continual home settlements (what a sincere act of showing you really want peace)
6. Checkpoint humiliations and long ques.
7. Curfews
8. Construction of beautiful homes and incentives given to settlers from Brooklyn. Oh, and demolish more palestinian homes while your at it.
9. Denying medical treatment to the sick as a result of road closures.
10. Spiralling the unemployment crisis.
My father was shot dead while attending church services in Ramallah. The Israeli soldier in question just got a slap on the wrist and fined a joke of a few shekels. He was relocated to a different station. Simple as that. And it is highly unlikely because it had anything to do with the death of my father. As that same solder, Oded, has been spotted in other parts of the town.
So it begs the question, where is the justice for my father?.
So talk all you want, action will speak louder then your ever cheapening words. If you happen to be in Israel, why not come and stay at my place?. Atleast you'll see the real experience of being occupied. You cannot speak for Israel when you live in the comforts of high rise apartments of the Manhatten, beaches of Miami or villas of Tel Aviv. And before you go on with your suicide bomber gibberish, please read the ten points above and then try to draw up a cause and effect. Treat it like the ten commandments if it will make any sense to you.
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Having friends being on contract in Dubai, I would say "go".
If you are a Christian, or religious non-Muslim, expect to be asked repeatedly to convert to Islam. If you are not religious it will not be an issue for you.
Do the traveling while you can, before other obligations lock you down. Keep your eyes open and try new things; you will be grateful you did in the future.
"And before you go on with your suicide bomber gibberish, please read the ten points above and then try to draw up a cause and effect."
Hi Mark. The Palestinian people are suffering dearly, mostly at the hands of the Israeli army.
But what is Arafat, or Hamas, doing to better your situation? How has the suicide bombings made life better for your people in any way? Do you really think you are going to defeat Israel militarily some day? Do you really think any other Arab country will lift a finger to help you, when they never have up until now?
Since you speak of cause and effect, what has been the effect of suicide bombings for your people? Has it brought you more peace, more freedom, more prosperity?
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result.
And just so I'm clear, continuing and expanding the "settlements" is absolutely gonzo, certifiable, whacked-out behavior on the part of Israel. At least equally insane to what Arafat, Hamas, etc. are up to. Ending "settlements" would have an immediate impact on a lot of the problems you list.
Of course, the situation being what it is, when Sharon wanted to get rid of some of the settlements, both Israelis AND Palestinians objected. I'm sure there was some strategic, diplomatic, political reasoning behind this, but at some point don't you have to favor action that will have a real, immediate, positive impact for everyone involved?
(Rhetorical question, sorry.)
"Ariel Sharon disbanding the settlements is like Al Capone disbanding the beer bootlegging industry."
Look, all I know is what's in the news papers, I don't live in Israel or Palestine. But are you saying all the news organizations that reported that Sharon officially proposed disbanding at least SOME settlements were sharing a common hallucination?
Or does that tinfoil hat you're wearing enable you to read the "true" messages on the front page of the NYTimes inserted there by the aliens?
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Thats the thing Jim, sharon talks a good game. But as I look through my window, up at the hills, you see settlement houses being constructed. Real Settlement construction and promises of settlement dismantling are mutually exclusive entities. Sharon will remove, at most, outposts put up by rogue settlers. But he wont tackle the real settlements at hand. Up till now, all his actions have been symbolic. You have to remember, this is the same man that spearheaded the settlement movement since 1972.
Please understand, we don't hate Jews. And most Palestinians, Christian and Muslim, despite what u see on t.v., can distinguish between ordinary Jews and policymakers/army. But the likes of Sharon, dont seem to have an interest in peace,and whats worse, they exacerbate the situation by intensifying the occupation and making our lives a misery.
The New York Times and especially the New York Post cannot give you a real picture of the situation on the ground. If you are unable to make a visit to israel/palestine,,then atleast do objective research on the issue. And it would be appreciated if you can give more thought to the silenced Palestinian voice.
"But as I look through my window, up at the hills, you see settlement houses being constructed. Real Settlement construction and promises of settlement dismantling are mutually exclusive entities."
Thanks for the first hand information. As I said earlier, continuing to build settlements in the middle of people who hate you is totally irrational (I'm running out of euphimisms for insanity here). Either Sharon blew it, or he's quite the Machiavelli, putting himself on record for dismantling settlements while having others in his government on record as stopping it (as well as some Palestinian leaders objecting).
I think unilateral benevolence is the only sane strategy for Israel at this point. They're in the position of having total military superiority, but also no real diplomatic options, as there is no one to negotiate with (who's responsible for this state of affairs is another topic). Having some kind, any kind of definable border improves the situation for everyone. Finding a way to give Palestinians more autonomy over their own affairs can only improve things for Israelis.
So here's praying that a little bit of sanity, a little bit of enlightened self interest, at least, finds it's way into your neighborhood.
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I am very sorry to hear about what happened to your Father. May you not know any more sorrow! What were the circumstances surrounding his death?
"Basically, if we decipher the newspeak. it meant handing over the dirty work of control to Arafat, while continuing the settlements and other aspects of occupation."
Where is the newspeak? Arafat got control. Israel never agreed to stop building houses in lands in the West Bank. And lets get one thing clear: building houses is not comparable to killing people! Trying in some way to connect the two is horribly distorted.
"How nice, so Arafat got all the tangible benifets at the expense of the millions of Palestinians?. Assuming Arafat really got anything in the first place."
So what you are saying is that you have a problem with Arafat and how he is treating his "constituents". And what do you mean by "assuming Arafat really got anything"? If you live in Ramallah, surely you saw a ton of control given to Arafat as a result of the Oslo accords.
"But Palestinians themselves did continue to recieve their tangible "benifets"...
1. Home demolition
2. ..."
But how many of these things were true before the PA started the current war in 2000? Don't you think Israel has the right to defend itself in the face of vicious attacks against its citizens?
"If you happen to be in Israel, why not come and stay at my place?. Atleast you'll see the real experience of being occupied."
You know, it does interest me to take you up on your offer. But surely you recall what happened to the ~16 year old Jewish Israeli boy who was seduced via internet to go to Ramallah to meet a young lady. He was murdered as soon as he got there.
My father (May the Lord rest his soul) was walking to church at 10am, Sunday 18th August 2002. According to a witness, 2 Israeli patrolmen stopped him, and asked him why he was running, my father replied that he was late for chruch service. (Knowing my father, puncuality was not his greatest habit). One of the Israelis mocked his crucifix, and asked him, why is it so big (as if to imply that he was making a public statement) . My father got offended, but kept his cool. They said he can go. But as soon as he turned around, he was shot by one of the israeli soldier at point blank range. An old lady started wailed at the scene, much of this what I say here was her version.
According to the Israeli soldiers version, its similar to the old lady's, except that my father got so offended by the crucifix statement, that he stormed off. And the Israeli soldier claimed in his report that it was a case of mistaken identity.
Now it begs the question here, Even if the Israelis version is correct. Even if my father was stubborn in replies to them(which I highly doubt), does it give them the warrant to shoot a 66 year old man in the back of the head?. When he clearly was no threat to them whatsoever. Can you enlighten me as to how should justice work for my father?. If this incident was caught on camera, like the case of the 12 year old boy Mohammed in 2000, there would have been global outrage. And Israel would have launched an investigation into the issue. This is the sad reality, Israel only does investigations into incidents that attract international publicity. For the rest of the 99% of unfilmed cases, it just turns a blind eye. The Israeli soldier in question, was fined a few shekels. We were horrified, even Israeli peace activists that I know protested big time to the local IDF office. But to no avail.
By the way, if you ever come across a man by the name of Oded Tanenbaum, serving in the southern Ramallah division, his the man that took my fathers life away.
I don't know how he ever goes to sleep at night, let alone all the other self-rightous soldiers. And the struggle for dignity and survival goes on in the territories...
I am an expat living in Dubai for the past 20 years. 80 per cent of the population here are expats. Its western lifestyle without the taxes!!
Safe? as much as can be anywere in the west!
Like several people said here, follow the law and no one will harass you. That is the same in the west isn;t it?
i saw a spray which makes your car number plate invisible to speed cameras and red light cameas
www.beta-flash.com
Joel, did you go for the job in Dubai? I'm also an IT professional with 8 years experience in ERP systems (business analyis, configuration to post implementation). My partner is moving in August for a 1-2 year construction role & Im considering giving up a 1 year UK contract to join him & try my luck in Dubai. Im wondering what the chances are for a female IT professional.
========================================Its good I found out about this website and people's commentaries about foreigners wanting to go to Dubai.
I'm hoping to go soon but just to make things easy for first timers I wont be going alone. I invited a couple of friends to join me in my job hunting there and also to help me lessen my costs for the stay.
All 4 of will be sharing costs on the apartment and food. Isnt that great?
I suggest you also do the same thing at least you wont feel alone..
Hope to meet up with you guys when we get there. Hope I find an employer really soon.
I'm from the Philippines working as Sales and Marketing Officer for one IT Company. Im going to that place to earn more.
